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Israel - Road Accident Victim Saves 9 with Organ Donation

Published on:   Aug 02, 2009 at 03:42 PM
News Source:  Jpost
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Israel - The parents of Shimon Zelikovsky, a 35-year-old man who was left brain dead in a road accident over the weekend, donated his organs and saved nine people who desperately needed transplants.

His heart went to a 49-year-old man at Hadassah-University Medical Center in Jerusalem's Ein Kerem, while his lungs were transplanted into a 54-year-old man and a 62-year-old woman at the Rabin Medical Center-Beilinson Campus in Petah Tikva.

A 61-year-old woman received some of the liver lobe at Hadassah, and a two-year-old received the remaining lobe at Schneider Children's Medical Center in Petah Tikva.

A kidney and pancreas went to a 35-year-old man at Beilinson and the other kidney to a 54-year-old man at Rambam Medical Center.

Skin was taken for the treatment of burn patients, while ligaments and bone were saved for transplant into people with orthopedic problems and bone cancer.


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1

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:03 PM Anonymous Says:

Saving life in death. But the part about skin, bone and ligaments? How do you do a tahara?

2

 Aug 02, 2009 at 03:57 PM kalman Says:

Wow, that's amazing.

Btw anyone know what the halachic view is of organ donations.

3

 Aug 02, 2009 at 03:53 PM Avrohom Abba Says:

Excellent!
What a gevaldig, beautiful, noble, and respectful way to honor his death by giving life.
This is a true Kiddush Hashem.

4

 Aug 02, 2009 at 03:53 PM Anonymous Says:

they might arrest him

5

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:18 PM shlemiel Says:

Nebech to this poor unguided soul. no tahara no kevira, mamesh like the animals. Exactly what herzel envisioned.

6

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:23 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #3  
Avrohom Abba Says:

Excellent!
What a gevaldig, beautiful, noble, and respectful way to honor his death by giving life.
This is a true Kiddush Hashem.

Amen. May his family be comforted by knowing that this generous gift saved others.

7

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
shlemiel Says:

Nebech to this poor unguided soul. no tahara no kevira, mamesh like the animals. Exactly what herzel envisioned.

How do you know? I just love speculation disguised as facts. Are you in the Chevra Kedisha? I am. Enough said.

8

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:23 PM יהודי אמיתי Says:

ע"פ פסק הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א זהו אסור דאורייתא לנדב חלקי הגוף גם אם המוח מת

9

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:56 PM Gut Gezugt Says:

Reply to #8  
יהודי אמיתי Says:

ע"פ פסק הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א זהו אסור דאורייתא לנדב חלקי הגוף גם אם המוח מת

Agree. It is not clear that this individual was Hallachically dead, in which case he was murdered to harvest his organs.

Hashem Yerachem.

10

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:52 PM cp Says:

Hatzolas nefashos mamash.

11

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:51 PM Avrohom Abba Says:

Reply to #8  
יהודי אמיתי Says:

ע"פ פסק הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א זהו אסור דאורייתא לנדב חלקי הגוף גם אם המוח מת

Which Rabbonim? Where is this psak written? Interesting! You're allowed to be michallel Shabbos and Yom Tov to save ONE life, but this יהודי אמיתי has some secret Rabbonim geonim who don't allow donating organs which saved MANY lives!?
"הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א

12

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Contrary to popular belief, halacha has no problem to donate organs. The problem is that halacha says that brain-dead, if the heart beats, is NOT dead.
The US law (and around the world) ALSO had it 30+ years ago, that death meant that the heart couldn't function. But then the new technology of organ transplant was introduced, and if the heart stops completely, [almost always] the organs are useless. (The organs work best if removed from a body whose heart is functioning.)
So they revised the law(!) and re-defined death to mean brain dead. According to halacha, removing organs from a brain-dead only, person, amounts to murder.
(There were many cases that a brain dead person awoke and recovered.)
So yes, one may donate organs. BUT, not kill you for the favor.

13

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:43 PM Just Thinking Says:

Reply to #8  
יהודי אמיתי Says:

ע"פ פסק הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א זהו אסור דאורייתא לנדב חלקי הגוף גם אם המוח מת

many Poskim permit this, some recommend it and some say it is obligated to do everything in your power to save another human being.
יהודי אמיתי does not mean everything is assur, get over it. I love the way you give titles and generalize all the Rabbis opinions, please study the subject before commenting. I did.

14

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:36 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
shlemiel Says:

Nebech to this poor unguided soul. no tahara no kevira, mamesh like the animals. Exactly what herzel envisioned.

Why are you so sure this is against halacha? On the face of it, why is this worse than any other mitzvah which gets pushed aside for pikuch nefesh? This fellow might have saved nine Jewish lives with his donations. There is a group called Halachic Organ Donation Society which you might want to look up...I don't know what percentage of Chareidi Rabbanim hold of it..but I wouldn't be so quick to be dismissive. His soul might have gotten more zechusim in death than in life...

15

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:35 PM Charles Hall Says:

Reply to #2  
kalman Says:

Wow, that's amazing.

Btw anyone know what the halachic view is of organ donations.

To donate an organ is a tremendous mitzvah! The halachic machloket regards not whether organ donation is permitted, but what, exactly, constitutes death. Most Sefardic rabbis, and most Dati Leumi rabbis in Israel, along with Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler at Yeshiva University, hold that brain death is death, and the Knesset adopted this position last year. Most Ashkenazic charedi rabbis and some of Rabbi Dr. Tendler's colleagues at YU hold differently.

16

 Aug 02, 2009 at 04:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #2  
kalman Says:

Wow, that's amazing.

Btw anyone know what the halachic view is of organ donations.

This is very problematic alpi halacha. Although live donors is big mitzva according to most poskim. This issue of brain death is contoversial if that is considered death lhalacha, the heimishe poskim do not accept brain death as being dead, therefore they consider organ donation from such a patient Retzicha mamesh. Those who do accept that criteria feel that its a mitzva to donate organs.

17

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:39 PM card carrying donor Says:

please check out the website for the halachic organ donation society http://hods.org/

18

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:39 PM plain jew Says:

Reply to #3  
Avrohom Abba Says:

Excellent!
What a gevaldig, beautiful, noble, and respectful way to honor his death by giving life.
This is a true Kiddush Hashem.

A kidush ha'shem? I don't know what yeshive you went. but in my torah its not allowed maybe their is a few torah's I don know not only u shouldn't donate parts of a deceased the blood from a niftar you have to scrape off the road or sidewalk if there was an accident ch"v. So donating is against halacha.

19

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:34 PM dave Says:

Charles Hall is RIGHT on the mark. The issue is not with "organ donation" per say: Such would be a tremendous mitzvah if we only knew exactly when Halachik death is. Its easy for all of you to be theoretically machmir now and look down upon those who hold like the dati leumi poskim and Rav Tendler, but Lo alienu , it should never befall you or your family , lets see what your attitude would be when you are in a position where you need to rely on their psak to save a family member,.

20

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:33 PM Anonymous Says:

Guy.... it is also important to know, that when you allow "tissue donation" thinking they will take only skin..... you need to know that if your donor card specified "Tissues" they usually take the major BONES!!!!! Tibia, Fiblua, Femur, etc., They conveniently classify bones as tissue, as most would not want to give away their major bones.

21

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:26 PM Mordy Neuman Says:

Again with emotions. Enough! Our Torah guides us on every move in life and in death. Donating organs from a brain-dead person (or evan a completely dead person, according to most) is asur min hatorah. The fact that others were saved is irrelavent. If you think this view is not sensative than sign up for another religion. Our Torah is crystal clear and staying true to it is not always fun or politically correct. Organ donation is against the Torah regardless of YOUR opinion, the Torah rules, not our emotions

22

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:24 PM Intentionally Anonymous Says:

Okay, guys. Here is MY opinion... for sure the only one that counts... LOL

Pikuach nefesh IS a great mitzvah. One of the greatest! TRUE,
Pikuach nefesh is docheh (pushes off) MOST but NOT ALL other commandments
It is totally ossur to kill one person to save 1000, even if the one only has 5 min of poor "quality of life" left. This is clear, undisputed halacha.

True, doctors have redefined death in order to make donating organs palatable to the masses.
In reality, most organs must be harvested PRIOR TO DEATH to be viable. But, the masses, especially those who have some religion or another, have objections to the harvesting of organs or tissues from a living person, thus killing him to harvest said organs.
Secondly, the organ recipient could not emotionally handle the concept that a man was killed so he may live.

So we conveniently re-define death, so that we can tell ourselves and others, especially the recipient and the donors' familes that the donor has, indeed, passed away.

I will not pass judgment. Maybe this chicanery does save many lives, and may be worth adopting as acceptable.

But, though a few choice rabbonim have brought into it, the main poskim of the generation have boldly shut the door, rejecting this deception.
It is clear that brain death is not death. The person is still halachakly alive in every sense. Even Brain-Stem Death, which almost 100% of doctors admits is irreversible, and is the equivalent of death, is not really death, and certainly is not halachakly death.

Maybe we do need all the major poskim to sit down, and re-work our thoughts on this to save lives.

But, it is not so poshut. At this time it is clearly ossur. That some "brave" rabbonim have come up with some heterim, does not change the fact that they are almost daas yachid, as the main poskim stand firm against it.

Remembering that our time on this world is but a grain of sand as compared with the vast beaches of enternity:..... I urge you all to consider:

The issue of getting a Tahara is not the important thing. The real questions are:
1. Is this act murder? Is the harvesting of vital organs from a man/woman whose heart is still beating, and thus causing the heart to stop, actually murder?
2. Are the doctors halachakly guilty of murder?
3. Since saving lives, even 1000 lives, does not justify murder, this is vital.
4.. Is the recipient of an organ harvested in the process of murder mutar to take said organ? Or does the recipient gain a life, but lose Olam Habah?
5. Does the DONOR and RECIPIENT lose Olam Habah by causing the doctors to be nichshal (tripped up) by this dangerous choice?
6. We all agree that it is murder by original Torah law, since original halacha is clear that if the heart beats the person is alive.. Do the rabbonim have the obligation to pass new laws making it mutar? Do they have the power to do it?

I have no answers. What I do have is respect for all sides and opinions, and would like to see this matter discussed.

Maybe the solution is to grow clones, which we halachkly may find a way to define as "golams" ... not as human beings ..... since they are not created by halachik reproduction, and use these clones as organ farms.

This may find the outside world objecting to it, since they will want to give these clones rights of some sort. But, maybe this still is the way to go?

23

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:20 PM u cant do that Says:

First of all a jew cannot disconnect the machines if he's brain dead, Second, a yid cannot donate organs once he died. Thats the halucha~

24

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:08 PM Anonymous Says:

anyone know can organs be donated after complete death?

25

 Aug 02, 2009 at 05:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Contrary to popular belief, halacha has no problem to donate organs. The problem is that halacha says that brain-dead, if the heart beats, is NOT dead.
The US law (and around the world) ALSO had it 30+ years ago, that death meant that the heart couldn't function. But then the new technology of organ transplant was introduced, and if the heart stops completely, [almost always] the organs are useless. (The organs work best if removed from a body whose heart is functioning.)
So they revised the law(!) and re-defined death to mean brain dead. According to halacha, removing organs from a brain-dead only, person, amounts to murder.
(There were many cases that a brain dead person awoke and recovered.)
So yes, one may donate organs. BUT, not kill you for the favor.

There are not many cases where a brain dead person awoke and recovered. Some people confuse being in a coma with brain dead. There are different levels and types of comas.

26

 Aug 02, 2009 at 05:41 PM Anonymous Says:

I always thought/heard that it was a BIG problem to donate ANY organ after death (regardless of when/how death occured). I thought it had something to do with techiat hameitim. Does anyone know for sure? And with sources please not just "rabbis" Thank you.

27

 Aug 02, 2009 at 07:31 PM Dvorah Says:

Reply to #11  
Avrohom Abba Says:

Which Rabbonim? Where is this psak written? Interesting! You're allowed to be michallel Shabbos and Yom Tov to save ONE life, but this יהודי אמיתי has some secret Rabbonim geonim who don't allow donating organs which saved MANY lives!?
"הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א

It may seem like the ultimate Chessed to donate organs but in the long run -when it becomes too common and accepted and routine and some Doctors get too trigger happy and maybe don't wait until the donor is really gone - After all if they can save so many others lives -why worry about a few minutesof life !"
We can never outsmart Daas Torah and there are never any exceptions - even if it looks good in the short run

28

 Aug 02, 2009 at 07:25 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #25  
Anonymous Says:

There are not many cases where a brain dead person awoke and recovered. Some people confuse being in a coma with brain dead. There are different levels and types of comas.

They are not "many" but there are some.

There are also numerous cases of patients' being diagnosed "Brain-Stem Death" which is the "Deadest" form of brain death, which ALL doctors claim is total and irreversible.
But, these cases were cases where they did wake up. One left the hospital, only a few months ago, the SAME DAY he was diagnosed as brain stem dead, and they were ready to harvest organs.

So, if there are all these cases, why do the papers tell us that they never recover from brain-stem death?

Because once the person recovers, they doctors change the diagnosis to simple brain death instead of brain-stem death, or simply remove all references to brain death from the records. Or, they simply "admit" they made a mistake and misdiagnosed the brain death

Their logic is as follows;
a.. Nobody wakes up from brain death.
b. He woke up.
c. Therefore we made a mistake, and he was never really brain dead.

This protects the concept of brain death as death, keeping it safe from challenge, thus protecting the transplant industry, and transferring the blame to the diagnosis.

The debates stay focused on the concept.... which maintains 100% statistics.

However, nobody takes the time to say, "Well, if those mistakes were made, what is to say that THIS patient is not being mistakenly diagnosed as brain dead?" !!!!!!!

I don't care if they wake up from real "Brain death" or from "Misdiagnosed Brain Death"
It is all really the same thing; isn't it???????

29

 Aug 02, 2009 at 07:08 PM Anonymous Says:

If the heart stops beating the organs are useless. That means to say, organ donations are taken from a patient whose heart is still beating. If his heart is still beating even if his brain is "dead", he is considered alive according to Rav Moshe Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalman. The Dr who takes his organs is a rotzaich mamesh. It is therefor assur to be the recipeint of organs in Israel because you have to assume they were taken from a yid. In chutz laaretz it is mutar to receive organs because you can assume they were from a goy.

30

 Aug 02, 2009 at 06:55 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #5  
shlemiel Says:

Nebech to this poor unguided soul. no tahara no kevira, mamesh like the animals. Exactly what herzel envisioned.

Nebech on you!!!! If you or a loved was in need of an organ you wouldn't hesitate to take one if one was offered .I have never heard of frum person in need of an organ not taking one. If you believe that it's wrong to give an organ than why is it OK to take an organ? This 35-year-old man has in his short life and tragic death done more good than you'll probably do in ten lifetimes. So who is nebech on?

31

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:20 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

If the heart stops beating the organs are useless. That means to say, organ donations are taken from a patient whose heart is still beating. If his heart is still beating even if his brain is "dead", he is considered alive according to Rav Moshe Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalman. The Dr who takes his organs is a rotzaich mamesh. It is therefor assur to be the recipeint of organs in Israel because you have to assume they were taken from a yid. In chutz laaretz it is mutar to receive organs because you can assume they were from a goy.

You're stating that taking an organ when the heart is still beating is halachically considered murder. However; you say that in chutz laaretz it's permissible because you can assume they are from a non-jew. So, are you saying that it's halachically permissibe to murder a gentile?

32

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:17 PM Levi Yitzchak Rosenbaum Says:

If there's still a kidney availale, I have a buyer!!

33

 Aug 02, 2009 at 08:55 PM Avrohom Abba Says:

If a person is totally brain dead, they can only exist as long as they are connected to oxygen and heart and lung machines.. etc... they will never recover whatever happens; it's impossible.
Coma is a different matter. People have survived after being in a coma after many years even more than ten or more years. But those people are never called "brain dead."
"Brain dead" means there will be no recovery.

34

 Aug 02, 2009 at 08:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

If the heart stops beating the organs are useless. That means to say, organ donations are taken from a patient whose heart is still beating. If his heart is still beating even if his brain is "dead", he is considered alive according to Rav Moshe Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalman. The Dr who takes his organs is a rotzaich mamesh. It is therefor assur to be the recipeint of organs in Israel because you have to assume they were taken from a yid. In chutz laaretz it is mutar to receive organs because you can assume they were from a goy.

It is always so interesting how many poskim frequent the blogosphere. Contrary to all th emisinformation being posted: According to Rav Moshe zt"l (and as was held in Europe) when a person is no longer breathing they are dead. Period. The brain-stem control the respiratory system. Therefore, if there is brain-stem death, the person is incapable of breathing, and is therefore dead al pi halacha. To just preempt all the pathetic bloggers who want to make this into a personal opportunity to shmutz-up Rabbi Moshe Tendler who has been saying this b'shem his shver for years: Anybody who is the least bit familiar with this issue knows that that is what Rav Moshe held. The ONLY question is whether brain stem death=not breathing. If someone can present any medical finding to the contrary then perhaps there is something to talk about. Otherwise the distinction is siomply academic. And you dont need to take my word for it: HaGaon Rav Dovid Feinstein shlita spoke about this at a Agudah Convention a few years ago where he confirmed that this was his father's shittah. Furthermore, Rav Dovid shlita said at that convention that once the person is deemed dead, his organs may be harvested in order to donate them to yiddin who are waiting for them at that time.
This is not to say that there are other shittos, but last time I checked Rav Moshe was the Poseik Hador so these people definately have what to rely upon.

35

 Aug 02, 2009 at 08:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Contrary to popular belief, halacha has no problem to donate organs. The problem is that halacha says that brain-dead, if the heart beats, is NOT dead.
The US law (and around the world) ALSO had it 30+ years ago, that death meant that the heart couldn't function. But then the new technology of organ transplant was introduced, and if the heart stops completely, [almost always] the organs are useless. (The organs work best if removed from a body whose heart is functioning.)
So they revised the law(!) and re-defined death to mean brain dead. According to halacha, removing organs from a brain-dead only, person, amounts to murder.
(There were many cases that a brain dead person awoke and recovered.)
So yes, one may donate organs. BUT, not kill you for the favor.

Just for the record there is not one single documented case where someone was completely brain dead and recovered..

36

 Aug 02, 2009 at 08:47 PM formally Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

They are not "many" but there are some.

There are also numerous cases of patients' being diagnosed "Brain-Stem Death" which is the "Deadest" form of brain death, which ALL doctors claim is total and irreversible.
But, these cases were cases where they did wake up. One left the hospital, only a few months ago, the SAME DAY he was diagnosed as brain stem dead, and they were ready to harvest organs.

So, if there are all these cases, why do the papers tell us that they never recover from brain-stem death?

Because once the person recovers, they doctors change the diagnosis to simple brain death instead of brain-stem death, or simply remove all references to brain death from the records. Or, they simply "admit" they made a mistake and misdiagnosed the brain death

Their logic is as follows;
a.. Nobody wakes up from brain death.
b. He woke up.
c. Therefore we made a mistake, and he was never really brain dead.

This protects the concept of brain death as death, keeping it safe from challenge, thus protecting the transplant industry, and transferring the blame to the diagnosis.

The debates stay focused on the concept.... which maintains 100% statistics.

However, nobody takes the time to say, "Well, if those mistakes were made, what is to say that THIS patient is not being mistakenly diagnosed as brain dead?" !!!!!!!

I don't care if they wake up from real "Brain death" or from "Misdiagnosed Brain Death"
It is all really the same thing; isn't it???????

one can do a cat scan and see how the brain has shrunk and that there is nothing left but the heart is still beating because the patient is hooked up to a machine has Zero chance to recover

37

 Aug 02, 2009 at 08:31 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #22  
Intentionally Anonymous Says:

Okay, guys. Here is MY opinion... for sure the only one that counts... LOL

Pikuach nefesh IS a great mitzvah. One of the greatest! TRUE,
Pikuach nefesh is docheh (pushes off) MOST but NOT ALL other commandments
It is totally ossur to kill one person to save 1000, even if the one only has 5 min of poor "quality of life" left. This is clear, undisputed halacha.

True, doctors have redefined death in order to make donating organs palatable to the masses.
In reality, most organs must be harvested PRIOR TO DEATH to be viable. But, the masses, especially those who have some religion or another, have objections to the harvesting of organs or tissues from a living person, thus killing him to harvest said organs.
Secondly, the organ recipient could not emotionally handle the concept that a man was killed so he may live.

So we conveniently re-define death, so that we can tell ourselves and others, especially the recipient and the donors' familes that the donor has, indeed, passed away.

I will not pass judgment. Maybe this chicanery does save many lives, and may be worth adopting as acceptable.

But, though a few choice rabbonim have brought into it, the main poskim of the generation have boldly shut the door, rejecting this deception.
It is clear that brain death is not death. The person is still halachakly alive in every sense. Even Brain-Stem Death, which almost 100% of doctors admits is irreversible, and is the equivalent of death, is not really death, and certainly is not halachakly death.

Maybe we do need all the major poskim to sit down, and re-work our thoughts on this to save lives.

But, it is not so poshut. At this time it is clearly ossur. That some "brave" rabbonim have come up with some heterim, does not change the fact that they are almost daas yachid, as the main poskim stand firm against it.

Remembering that our time on this world is but a grain of sand as compared with the vast beaches of enternity:..... I urge you all to consider:

The issue of getting a Tahara is not the important thing. The real questions are:
1. Is this act murder? Is the harvesting of vital organs from a man/woman whose heart is still beating, and thus causing the heart to stop, actually murder?
2. Are the doctors halachakly guilty of murder?
3. Since saving lives, even 1000 lives, does not justify murder, this is vital.
4.. Is the recipient of an organ harvested in the process of murder mutar to take said organ? Or does the recipient gain a life, but lose Olam Habah?
5. Does the DONOR and RECIPIENT lose Olam Habah by causing the doctors to be nichshal (tripped up) by this dangerous choice?
6. We all agree that it is murder by original Torah law, since original halacha is clear that if the heart beats the person is alive.. Do the rabbonim have the obligation to pass new laws making it mutar? Do they have the power to do it?

I have no answers. What I do have is respect for all sides and opinions, and would like to see this matter discussed.

Maybe the solution is to grow clones, which we halachkly may find a way to define as "golams" ... not as human beings ..... since they are not created by halachik reproduction, and use these clones as organ farms.

This may find the outside world objecting to it, since they will want to give these clones rights of some sort. But, maybe this still is the way to go?

So what will you say to the clones when you need their organ? Sorry Buddy, you are not halachically a person. What makes you think a clone would not have a Neshama. Children born by in vitro fertalization are blessed by a Neshama. Why wouldn't cloned people?

On the other hand I look forward to the day when organs (not people) can be grown ina laboratory.

38

 Aug 02, 2009 at 08:27 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #12  
Anonymous Says:

Contrary to popular belief, halacha has no problem to donate organs. The problem is that halacha says that brain-dead, if the heart beats, is NOT dead.
The US law (and around the world) ALSO had it 30+ years ago, that death meant that the heart couldn't function. But then the new technology of organ transplant was introduced, and if the heart stops completely, [almost always] the organs are useless. (The organs work best if removed from a body whose heart is functioning.)
So they revised the law(!) and re-defined death to mean brain dead. According to halacha, removing organs from a brain-dead only, person, amounts to murder.
(There were many cases that a brain dead person awoke and recovered.)
So yes, one may donate organs. BUT, not kill you for the favor.

Could it be that problem is that the heart would have stopped, if not for the ability for modern medicine to keep a heart pumping via mechnical means and medication? I know that people have awoken from a vegetative state or a coma, but I have never heard of someone waking up after being "brain dead". Please state your sources.

39

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:44 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Mordy Neuman Says:

Again with emotions. Enough! Our Torah guides us on every move in life and in death. Donating organs from a brain-dead person (or evan a completely dead person, according to most) is asur min hatorah. The fact that others were saved is irrelavent. If you think this view is not sensative than sign up for another religion. Our Torah is crystal clear and staying true to it is not always fun or politically correct. Organ donation is against the Torah regardless of YOUR opinion, the Torah rules, not our emotions

I see you speaking out of emotion...
"Nivel Hames" is a "Lav"
hatzolas nefoshes is a "ESSAH".

40

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:41 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
plain jew Says:

A kidush ha'shem? I don't know what yeshive you went. but in my torah its not allowed maybe their is a few torah's I don know not only u shouldn't donate parts of a deceased the blood from a niftar you have to scrape off the road or sidewalk if there was an accident ch"v. So donating is against halacha.

M'ken zein az di hust nisht gelerent!!!
yes "kavod hames" is of utmost importance in our religion BUT
Nivel hames is a "LAV" and hatzolas nefushes is a "esseh".
the issue our gedolim have with organ donation after death is two fold...
1. it cannot go into a "world bank".
2. you cannot kill a pt in order to save another... and "most" gedolim believe death is after cardiac arrest and its not possible to get many organs after cardiac arrest.

41

 Aug 02, 2009 at 08:07 PM dave Says:

Reply to #27  
Dvorah Says:

It may seem like the ultimate Chessed to donate organs but in the long run -when it becomes too common and accepted and routine and some Doctors get too trigger happy and maybe don't wait until the donor is really gone - After all if they can save so many others lives -why worry about a few minutesof life !"
We can never outsmart Daas Torah and there are never any exceptions - even if it looks good in the short run

Devorah...

"you can never outsmart daas torah"? REALLY??? what about when all the daas torah told the yidden to stay in europe before the churban? dont you think the people that ignored this "outsmarted" daas torah?

please explain

42

 Aug 02, 2009 at 07:50 PM Meir Says:

Reply to #8  
יהודי אמיתי Says:

ע"פ פסק הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א זהו אסור דאורייתא לנדב חלקי הגוף גם אם המוח מת

Reb Moshe was not only matir but said it was a mitzva

43

 Aug 02, 2009 at 07:44 PM Anonymous Says:

I love how everybody here is a doctor. Somehow you made it through medical school even though college is assur.
The issue is what is the halachik definition of death. Is it brain death or cardiac death? That is for your rav to decide. But to correct a few points:
1. You can harvest organs after cardiac death. Some of them (heart, lungs) arent as good for transplant at that point but others (skin, cornea, kidney) can be used
2. There is DEFINETLY a tahara after donation, why wouldnt there be?
3. There are Rabbonim who hold that brain death is Halachik death. You may not hold of them, but dont disparage those who do
4. Lastly, on a more intellectual level, if you believe that organ donation is assur and therefore no one in our circles can be a donor, how can you justify receiving an organ transplant f chas v'sholom you need one. Why should you be ale to take, but never give.

44

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:51 PM formally Says:

4. Lastly, on a more intellectual level, if you believe that organ donation is assur and therefore no one in our circles can be a donor, how can you justify receiving an organ transplant f chas v'sholom you need one. Why should you be ale to take, but never give.


I am still waiting for someone to answer that.

Why not just say those who feel we cannot donate, then we should not take. In cannot be a one why street. Also since who feels it is murder, how could you condone murder, The Torah says you cannot kill someone to save yourselves.
So taken an organ should be assur

Would love someone to be on death bed and say I will not take since I refuse to give. If not, you are really selfish murder someone to keep yourselves alive.

45

 Aug 02, 2009 at 10:28 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #1  
Anonymous Says:

Saving life in death. But the part about skin, bone and ligaments? How do you do a tahara?

How do you do a tahara if someone was badly burnt? You do your best.

46

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:08 PM Anonymous Says:

i had a friend who the doctors stated he was brain dead and the hospital was putting pressure that we need to pull the plug. The family got a copy of the ny halachic living will that states religious rights of such a patient supersede the medicals directives. After about a week- With a psak of gedolie hador it was determined not to refill the medicine bag that was helping the heart pump with the repsirator. The Doctors stated it would be a matter of hours or less and the patients heart would completly stop. I went to Rav Malkiel Kotler to arrange for the Levaya that we were told would be within hours (according to the doctors)and he stated "Who Said So- he is still alive, Why are we talking about levayas.".

The patient lived for another 2 weeks with no artifical medicine and he was what medicaly called "Braind Dead'" the entire 2-3 weeks So if Medically Brain Dead + not breathing, How did this person live for an addtional 2 weeks with no artifical medicine and he was medicaly considered brain dead. NO they did not pull the plug. The respirator machine can only help as long as the hearts pumping. Once the heart stops the machine cant help.

PS this hospital was NYU.

47

 Aug 02, 2009 at 09:51 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #29  
Anonymous Says:

If the heart stops beating the organs are useless. That means to say, organ donations are taken from a patient whose heart is still beating. If his heart is still beating even if his brain is "dead", he is considered alive according to Rav Moshe Rav Elyashiv and Rav Shlomo Zalman. The Dr who takes his organs is a rotzaich mamesh. It is therefor assur to be the recipeint of organs in Israel because you have to assume they were taken from a yid. In chutz laaretz it is mutar to receive organs because you can assume they were from a goy.

u are correct that killing a person that has only a heart beat is "ritzicha".
but
some organs can be donated even after cardiac arrest (like kidney)

48

 Aug 02, 2009 at 07:48 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #28  
Anonymous Says:

They are not "many" but there are some.

There are also numerous cases of patients' being diagnosed "Brain-Stem Death" which is the "Deadest" form of brain death, which ALL doctors claim is total and irreversible.
But, these cases were cases where they did wake up. One left the hospital, only a few months ago, the SAME DAY he was diagnosed as brain stem dead, and they were ready to harvest organs.

So, if there are all these cases, why do the papers tell us that they never recover from brain-stem death?

Because once the person recovers, they doctors change the diagnosis to simple brain death instead of brain-stem death, or simply remove all references to brain death from the records. Or, they simply "admit" they made a mistake and misdiagnosed the brain death

Their logic is as follows;
a.. Nobody wakes up from brain death.
b. He woke up.
c. Therefore we made a mistake, and he was never really brain dead.

This protects the concept of brain death as death, keeping it safe from challenge, thus protecting the transplant industry, and transferring the blame to the diagnosis.

The debates stay focused on the concept.... which maintains 100% statistics.

However, nobody takes the time to say, "Well, if those mistakes were made, what is to say that THIS patient is not being mistakenly diagnosed as brain dead?" !!!!!!!

I don't care if they wake up from real "Brain death" or from "Misdiagnosed Brain Death"
It is all really the same thing; isn't it???????

Please cite some reliable sources for your statements that people have woken from brain death. This is a serious issue and should be backed up with citations to have a meaningful discussion. For example, are there any peer reviewed research articles on misdiagnosis of brain death? Any court cases finding a misdiagnosis? Government studies?

49

 Aug 03, 2009 at 12:23 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #44  
formally Says:

4. Lastly, on a more intellectual level, if you believe that organ donation is assur and therefore no one in our circles can be a donor, how can you justify receiving an organ transplant f chas v'sholom you need one. Why should you be ale to take, but never give.


I am still waiting for someone to answer that.

Why not just say those who feel we cannot donate, then we should not take. In cannot be a one why street. Also since who feels it is murder, how could you condone murder, The Torah says you cannot kill someone to save yourselves.
So taken an organ should be assur

Would love someone to be on death bed and say I will not take since I refuse to give. If not, you are really selfish murder someone to keep yourselves alive.

While one cannot actively harvest an organ from someone (according to those who are of the opinion that brain death is not halachically considered death), if someone decides to be a donor himself there is absolutely no problem to receive an organ from such a person.
There you go, the answer.
Now some halachic and scientific tidbits for those who are interested:
1. No one has ever come back from absolute and total brain death. Any case in the news where someone awoke is just a case where there was a misdiagnosis of brain death. (It is impossible - neurons do not regenerate.)
2. Several reasons why organ donation would not be allowed: a) the mitzvah of kevurah b) the avirah of nivul hames c) cant recall if there are more
3. Noda B'Yehuda states that "Choleh Lfaneinu" is even Docheh the Nivul Hames
4. Chasam Sofer explains that this is chidush (bec one would think pikuach nefesh dictates that) bec there is no mitzvah of pikuach nefesh on the donor's part - he is dead.
5. SO basically, if someone is halachically dead (whatever that might be) it is def Mutar to donate organs for choleh lfaneinu (not for random research or cadaver usage). However, one is not obligated to be a donor (even though while alive, the donor has the chiyuv of Lo samod al dam re'echa) based on Radvaz (d'rache'huh darchei noam...)
6. In the current news topic - it is def choleh lfaneinu.

Now, more controversial...
While R' Moshe clearly writes that brain death is considered death (and has such been touted by R' Tendler), one who reads the actual teshuvah will have no choice but to realize that R' Moshe was talking about a case that does not exist and as such was medically misinformed. R' Moshe writes that 2 stipulations of brain death must exist: 1) brain is totally detached from the body (like chicken living without a head in the gemorah???) and 2) the brain is "nirkav."
Medically, if such conditions are met, it is impossible for a person to survive - even with a respirator. All "brain death" diagnoses (where the heart can still function) are circumstances where there is still some connection of brain to body. Therefore, there will never be a case where a person is brain dead (acc to R' Moshe) and still have a beating heart.

I am not trying to knock anyone and I have no agenda. Just trying to inform.

50

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:50 PM Anonymous Says:

Even with brain death, there is no foolproof test. They use a series of tests to surmise that the brain has ceased functioning, but it's not black & white, and there is room for error. If the brain is REALLY dead, there is no chance for RECOVERY, but the person may very well be still considered alive.
Now let's think about it, at what point is the person considered dead. Obviously they are trying to get the heart out while it's still alive, so the heart isn't dead yet. So what made the person dead, if many of his organs are alive? This is something that is above human capabilities, and lucky for us, we have a Torah to base our opinions on.
So let's study....

51

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:47 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

i had a friend who the doctors stated he was brain dead and the hospital was putting pressure that we need to pull the plug. The family got a copy of the ny halachic living will that states religious rights of such a patient supersede the medicals directives. After about a week- With a psak of gedolie hador it was determined not to refill the medicine bag that was helping the heart pump with the repsirator. The Doctors stated it would be a matter of hours or less and the patients heart would completly stop. I went to Rav Malkiel Kotler to arrange for the Levaya that we were told would be within hours (according to the doctors)and he stated "Who Said So- he is still alive, Why are we talking about levayas.".

The patient lived for another 2 weeks with no artifical medicine and he was what medicaly called "Braind Dead'" the entire 2-3 weeks So if Medically Brain Dead + not breathing, How did this person live for an addtional 2 weeks with no artifical medicine and he was medicaly considered brain dead. NO they did not pull the plug. The respirator machine can only help as long as the hearts pumping. Once the heart stops the machine cant help.

PS this hospital was NYU.

Brain Death or Brain-Stem Death?---there is a difference.

52

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:46 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Mordy Neuman Says:

Again with emotions. Enough! Our Torah guides us on every move in life and in death. Donating organs from a brain-dead person (or evan a completely dead person, according to most) is asur min hatorah. The fact that others were saved is irrelavent. If you think this view is not sensative than sign up for another religion. Our Torah is crystal clear and staying true to it is not always fun or politically correct. Organ donation is against the Torah regardless of YOUR opinion, the Torah rules, not our emotions

My brother was niftar waiting for a lung transplant. He was not a smoker or obese. Prior to his disease I thought like you. Then I did some research. You're wrong on everything you just wrote. It is not "crystal clear" and prominent rabbonim have ruled for donating organs. Organ donation is not against the Torah, this issue is very complicated and even the psak of R' Moshe is outdated considering modern medicine. It's about time that rabbonim sat down and worked something out, because right now we have a community of frum people who are takers and not givers.

53

 Aug 02, 2009 at 11:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #46  
Anonymous Says:

i had a friend who the doctors stated he was brain dead and the hospital was putting pressure that we need to pull the plug. The family got a copy of the ny halachic living will that states religious rights of such a patient supersede the medicals directives. After about a week- With a psak of gedolie hador it was determined not to refill the medicine bag that was helping the heart pump with the repsirator. The Doctors stated it would be a matter of hours or less and the patients heart would completly stop. I went to Rav Malkiel Kotler to arrange for the Levaya that we were told would be within hours (according to the doctors)and he stated "Who Said So- he is still alive, Why are we talking about levayas.".

The patient lived for another 2 weeks with no artifical medicine and he was what medicaly called "Braind Dead'" the entire 2-3 weeks So if Medically Brain Dead + not breathing, How did this person live for an addtional 2 weeks with no artifical medicine and he was medicaly considered brain dead. NO they did not pull the plug. The respirator machine can only help as long as the hearts pumping. Once the heart stops the machine cant help.

PS this hospital was NYU.

The heart can pump and there can be no natural respiration, one does not necessarily go with the other. Thats the whole point. If cardiac death is actually halachic death then the body would waste away before most vital organs can be donated. According to Rav Moshe ztl it goes by cessation of breathing---nothing to do with cardiac ie. just beacuase the heart is beating does not mean that the person is halachically alive. I fail to see your point therefore.

54

 Aug 03, 2009 at 06:02 AM Dreamers Says:

What a noble act of chesed! you know, you can't just take

55

 Aug 03, 2009 at 07:02 AM Anonymous Says:

According to all these "Knowledgeable" people quoting R' Moshe, every person doing mouth to mouth is being Mechaya Meisim...
You cannot quote that that you don't comprehend. Leave it to those who do!

56

 Aug 03, 2009 at 06:53 AM Michael Feldstein Says:

There is so much misinformation here (sprinkled in witha few posters trying to clear things up with factual information). Unfortunately, much education is still needed about this very complicated subject, and the Halachic Organ Donor Society site (www.hods.org) is the best place to obtain it. I am a board member of this organization, which has many respected poskim and great rabbis who have obtained organ donor cards and who support the organization.

A few things:

1) In the history of mankind, no one has ever woken up after being brain-stem dead. The tests today performed to determine whether or not the brain stem is dead are highly sophisticated, and can determine beyond a doubt whether in fact a person is brain stem dead or not.

2) The argument is not about whether it is forbidden or permitted to donate organs. The question is how one defines halachic death, as one poster correctly pointed out. If you define halachic death as cessation of heartbeat, this limits the ability to donate one's organs (certain organs, such as the kidneys and corneas, can be harvested after the heart stops beating within a very short time period, but a heart or lungs cannot). If you define halachic death as when the brain stem. dies, this greatly increases the opportunity to donate one's organs after death. The HOD Society allows one to choose their halachic definition of death on its organ donor card

3) The HODS website has a video testimony from R. Dovid Feinstein explaining what his father's position was on the halachic definition of death. I encourage folks to visit the site and see it.

4) The three prohibitions that would normally make organ donation prohibited (nivul hamet, hanaat hamet, hanalat hamet) are trumped by pikuach nefesh. It is more imortant to save a life, therefore these prohibitions would not apply.

5) The question of whether Jews should receive organs and not donate organs is not only an ethically problematic issue, but could be a halachic issue, too. Rabbis who reject brain stem death have allowed their congregants to receive heart and lung transplants based on the mistaken assumption that the "organs are being harvested anyway" since the standard medical criteria is brain-stem death. However, at the HOD Society's November 2006 seminar at the Albert Einstein Medical School, several transplant coordinators said that organs are removed only if there is a medically appropriate match between a donor and a recipient. If there is no match, the organs are not removed.

There is also a number of superstitions about donating organs (one won't be resurrected, etc.) that unfortunately continue to be promulgated, even though they have no basis in the halachic literature.

The issue of donating to non-Jews is also a very misunderstood subject.

Again, I'd recommend that everyone who would like to learn more about the subject visit www.hods.org for a complete discussion of all sides, and a wealth of articles and other reference information.

It is a very complex and emotional issue, but unless one understands the facts, one cannot have an intelligent discussion on the subject.

57

 Aug 03, 2009 at 03:35 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #33  
Avrohom Abba Says:

If a person is totally brain dead, they can only exist as long as they are connected to oxygen and heart and lung machines.. etc... they will never recover whatever happens; it's impossible.
Coma is a different matter. People have survived after being in a coma after many years even more than ten or more years. But those people are never called "brain dead."
"Brain dead" means there will be no recovery.

just this week a friend of mine who was written off as brain dead and was on life support for 6 weeks after being in documented cardiac arrest WITHOUT o2 for 12 minutes....he started speaking and is in great mental state of mind (although he still needs quad bipass).
now I don't care if you call this real brain dead or misstaken diognossis....if this person would have been unplugged (the dr.'s and insurance kept on putting an extreme amount of pressure to do so with them stopping to cove his bills for the hospital)for his organs it would have been retzichah....

58

 Aug 03, 2009 at 01:11 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Mordy Neuman Says:

Again with emotions. Enough! Our Torah guides us on every move in life and in death. Donating organs from a brain-dead person (or evan a completely dead person, according to most) is asur min hatorah. The fact that others were saved is irrelavent. If you think this view is not sensative than sign up for another religion. Our Torah is crystal clear and staying true to it is not always fun or politically correct. Organ donation is against the Torah regardless of YOUR opinion, the Torah rules, not our emotions

Wow- your so harsh. I am reading the comments, and you sound like a really pushy relig. person. There are ways of saying things and bringing the same point across. Keep speaking like that and you may end up turning someone off from relig. in general. What kind of thing to say is "sign up for another relig."?? People have questions that they need answered. There just trying to understand. There's no need to be rude about it!!

59

 Aug 03, 2009 at 09:01 AM michaelfeldstein Says:

just this week a friend of mine who was written off as brain dead and was on life support for 6 weeks after being in documented cardiac arrest WITHOUT o2 for 12 minutes....he started speaking and is in great mental state of mind (although he still needs quad bipass).
now I don't care if you call this real brain dead or misstaken diognossis....if this person would have been unplugged (the dr.'s and insurance kept on putting an extreme amount of pressure to do so with them stopping to cove his bills for the hospital)for his organs it would have been retzichah....
-----------------
I am quite certain that the diagnosis of your friend was that he was in a coma, or deep coma, but not brain stem dead. Unfortunately, many people confuse the two--and the result is that there is a misconception that organs can be harvested from people who can wake up from the dead. To repeat, in the history of mankind, no one has ever woken up after actually being brain stem dead.

Terry Schiavo, who made the news a few years ago, was not brain stem dead, she was in a persistent vegitative state, but her brain stem was functioning. If she were brain stem dead, she would not have lived as long as she did. Unfortunately, many people believed she was brain stem dead--which contributes to why there is so much confusion surrounding this issue.

60

 Aug 03, 2009 at 09:28 AM Anonymous Says:

there is a great shiur by Rabbi Noach I Oelbaum on Kol Halashon on Live organ Donations i would encourage all "knowledgable" posters to listen to this shiur for the "Charedi" view on this subject

61

 Aug 03, 2009 at 09:57 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #59  
michaelfeldstein Says:

just this week a friend of mine who was written off as brain dead and was on life support for 6 weeks after being in documented cardiac arrest WITHOUT o2 for 12 minutes....he started speaking and is in great mental state of mind (although he still needs quad bipass).
now I don't care if you call this real brain dead or misstaken diognossis....if this person would have been unplugged (the dr.'s and insurance kept on putting an extreme amount of pressure to do so with them stopping to cove his bills for the hospital)for his organs it would have been retzichah....
-----------------
I am quite certain that the diagnosis of your friend was that he was in a coma, or deep coma, but not brain stem dead. Unfortunately, many people confuse the two--and the result is that there is a misconception that organs can be harvested from people who can wake up from the dead. To repeat, in the history of mankind, no one has ever woken up after actually being brain stem dead.

Terry Schiavo, who made the news a few years ago, was not brain stem dead, she was in a persistent vegitative state, but her brain stem was functioning. If she were brain stem dead, she would not have lived as long as she did. Unfortunately, many people believed she was brain stem dead--which contributes to why there is so much confusion surrounding this issue.

they called him "brain dead"!!!!
they added the reasoning that he went without o2 for 12 minutes.
the medical field would take his organs in a jiffy to give it to you...so your argument that we can't take and not give must apply here as well.
sorry to tell you, I wouldn't want you to "kill" me when I have even the slightest chance (or no chance under the dr's opinion) waking up or surviving.
you and your entire "enlightend" judiasim world need to know that gedolim have already their decision of what "death" is.
my friend wouldn't be arround with "geoinim" like u

62

 Aug 03, 2009 at 10:02 AM dave Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

there is a great shiur by Rabbi Noach I Oelbaum on Kol Halashon on Live organ Donations i would encourage all "knowledgable" posters to listen to this shiur for the "Charedi" view on this subject

for the "chareidi" view?

What about the "halachik" view?

who cares what the chareidi view is... emesdik jews care about what halacha says not a hashkaffa

63

 Aug 03, 2009 at 10:00 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #34  
Anonymous Says:

It is always so interesting how many poskim frequent the blogosphere. Contrary to all th emisinformation being posted: According to Rav Moshe zt"l (and as was held in Europe) when a person is no longer breathing they are dead. Period. The brain-stem control the respiratory system. Therefore, if there is brain-stem death, the person is incapable of breathing, and is therefore dead al pi halacha. To just preempt all the pathetic bloggers who want to make this into a personal opportunity to shmutz-up Rabbi Moshe Tendler who has been saying this b'shem his shver for years: Anybody who is the least bit familiar with this issue knows that that is what Rav Moshe held. The ONLY question is whether brain stem death=not breathing. If someone can present any medical finding to the contrary then perhaps there is something to talk about. Otherwise the distinction is siomply academic. And you dont need to take my word for it: HaGaon Rav Dovid Feinstein shlita spoke about this at a Agudah Convention a few years ago where he confirmed that this was his father's shittah. Furthermore, Rav Dovid shlita said at that convention that once the person is deemed dead, his organs may be harvested in order to donate them to yiddin who are waiting for them at that time.
This is not to say that there are other shittos, but last time I checked Rav Moshe was the Poseik Hador so these people definately have what to rely upon.

You are saying that not breathing=death. Are you nuts? Ever heard or mouth to mouth, choking, CPR?

64

 Aug 03, 2009 at 11:01 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #14  
Anonymous Says:

Why are you so sure this is against halacha? On the face of it, why is this worse than any other mitzvah which gets pushed aside for pikuch nefesh? This fellow might have saved nine Jewish lives with his donations. There is a group called Halachic Organ Donation Society which you might want to look up...I don't know what percentage of Chareidi Rabbanim hold of it..but I wouldn't be so quick to be dismissive. His soul might have gotten more zechusim in death than in life...

So are you ready to be killed like this u can donate your organs. I don't understand how they killed a Live Person in order to save others?!?!?!?!

65

 Aug 03, 2009 at 12:34 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
plain jew Says:

A kidush ha'shem? I don't know what yeshive you went. but in my torah its not allowed maybe their is a few torah's I don know not only u shouldn't donate parts of a deceased the blood from a niftar you have to scrape off the road or sidewalk if there was an accident ch"v. So donating is against halacha.

Plain Jew is what your name is and is obvious from your post. Bring me a raya please. Bubby's maselach do not count for rabbinic psak halachos

66

 Aug 03, 2009 at 12:30 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #8  
יהודי אמיתי Says:

ע"פ פסק הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א זהו אסור דאורייתא לנדב חלקי הגוף גם אם המוח מת

Which Rabunim????

Its like saying Chazal says without knowing who

67

 Aug 03, 2009 at 01:23 PM Michael Feldstein Says:

they called him "brain dead"!!!!
they added the reasoning that he went without o2 for 12 minutes.
the medical field would take his organs in a jiffy to give it to you...so your argument that we can't take and not give must apply here as well.
sorry to tell you, I wouldn't want you to "kill" me when I have even the slightest chance (or no chance under the dr's opinion) waking up or surviving.
you and your entire "enlightend" judiasim world need to know that gedolim have already their decision of what "death" is.
my friend wouldn't be arround with "geoinim" like u
--------------
They should not have referred to him as brain stem dead if his brain stem was still functioning. The hospitals have very careful procedures to determine whether or not someone is in fact brain stem dead. An independent team conducts the tests to make a determination. The hospitals certainly do not want to declare someone brain stem dead and harvest organs from them before a confirmed test proves it--can you imagine the lawsuits that would result?

Please...I implore those who are seriously interested in discussing the topic...educate yourselves about the issue before spouting posts that may be inaccurate and that contain false
information. We are dealing with life and death issues here. It's a complex subject that deserves more
than the casual dismissals that some posters are giving the subject.

There are two legitimate halachic opinions regarding the halachic definition of death, and it's irresponsible and terribly offensive to say that anyone who believes that brain stem death is halachic death is murdering an individual.

68

 Aug 03, 2009 at 02:45 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #60  
Anonymous Says:

there is a great shiur by Rabbi Noach I Oelbaum on Kol Halashon on Live organ Donations i would encourage all "knowledgable" posters to listen to this shiur for the "Charedi" view on this subject

The "Charedi" view? Rav Moshe ztl wasn't frum enough for you?

69

 Aug 03, 2009 at 02:38 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #49  
Anonymous Says:

While one cannot actively harvest an organ from someone (according to those who are of the opinion that brain death is not halachically considered death), if someone decides to be a donor himself there is absolutely no problem to receive an organ from such a person.
There you go, the answer.
Now some halachic and scientific tidbits for those who are interested:
1. No one has ever come back from absolute and total brain death. Any case in the news where someone awoke is just a case where there was a misdiagnosis of brain death. (It is impossible - neurons do not regenerate.)
2. Several reasons why organ donation would not be allowed: a) the mitzvah of kevurah b) the avirah of nivul hames c) cant recall if there are more
3. Noda B'Yehuda states that "Choleh Lfaneinu" is even Docheh the Nivul Hames
4. Chasam Sofer explains that this is chidush (bec one would think pikuach nefesh dictates that) bec there is no mitzvah of pikuach nefesh on the donor's part - he is dead.
5. SO basically, if someone is halachically dead (whatever that might be) it is def Mutar to donate organs for choleh lfaneinu (not for random research or cadaver usage). However, one is not obligated to be a donor (even though while alive, the donor has the chiyuv of Lo samod al dam re'echa) based on Radvaz (d'rache'huh darchei noam...)
6. In the current news topic - it is def choleh lfaneinu.

Now, more controversial...
While R' Moshe clearly writes that brain death is considered death (and has such been touted by R' Tendler), one who reads the actual teshuvah will have no choice but to realize that R' Moshe was talking about a case that does not exist and as such was medically misinformed. R' Moshe writes that 2 stipulations of brain death must exist: 1) brain is totally detached from the body (like chicken living without a head in the gemorah???) and 2) the brain is "nirkav."
Medically, if such conditions are met, it is impossible for a person to survive - even with a respirator. All "brain death" diagnoses (where the heart can still function) are circumstances where there is still some connection of brain to body. Therefore, there will never be a case where a person is brain dead (acc to R' Moshe) and still have a beating heart.

I am not trying to knock anyone and I have no agenda. Just trying to inform.

Um, youre missing th oint--The idea was that brain stem death is THE SAME THING as detached from the body

70

 Aug 03, 2009 at 03:05 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #67  
Michael Feldstein Says:

they called him "brain dead"!!!!
they added the reasoning that he went without o2 for 12 minutes.
the medical field would take his organs in a jiffy to give it to you...so your argument that we can't take and not give must apply here as well.
sorry to tell you, I wouldn't want you to "kill" me when I have even the slightest chance (or no chance under the dr's opinion) waking up or surviving.
you and your entire "enlightend" judiasim world need to know that gedolim have already their decision of what "death" is.
my friend wouldn't be arround with "geoinim" like u
--------------
They should not have referred to him as brain stem dead if his brain stem was still functioning. The hospitals have very careful procedures to determine whether or not someone is in fact brain stem dead. An independent team conducts the tests to make a determination. The hospitals certainly do not want to declare someone brain stem dead and harvest organs from them before a confirmed test proves it--can you imagine the lawsuits that would result?

Please...I implore those who are seriously interested in discussing the topic...educate yourselves about the issue before spouting posts that may be inaccurate and that contain false
information. We are dealing with life and death issues here. It's a complex subject that deserves more
than the casual dismissals that some posters are giving the subject.

There are two legitimate halachic opinions regarding the halachic definition of death, and it's irresponsible and terribly offensive to say that anyone who believes that brain stem death is halachic death is murdering an individual.

should have, could have, would have called it something else...
with people and rabonim like youself, my friend would NOT be around anymore.
You have to be extremely careful with halachah and life before your goal of sharing with the non jewish world.
they have other guidelines that "furtunately" we frum Jews don't follow.

71

 Aug 03, 2009 at 03:02 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #63  
Anonymous Says:

You are saying that not breathing=death. Are you nuts? Ever heard or mouth to mouth, choking, CPR?

Simpleton. We're talking about when the respirratory system is no longer functioning. This was always the test used in Europe and this was the psak of Rav Moshe ztl whether it fits your little world-image or not

72

 Aug 03, 2009 at 05:53 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #21  
Mordy Neuman Says:

Again with emotions. Enough! Our Torah guides us on every move in life and in death. Donating organs from a brain-dead person (or evan a completely dead person, according to most) is asur min hatorah. The fact that others were saved is irrelavent. If you think this view is not sensative than sign up for another religion. Our Torah is crystal clear and staying true to it is not always fun or politically correct. Organ donation is against the Torah regardless of YOUR opinion, the Torah rules, not our emotions

so, the logical conclusion is that you should not accept an organ donation either. Somehow, I don't think that would be the case. If you would accept an organ, you are simply a selfish hypocrite.

73

 Aug 03, 2009 at 07:07 PM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #18  
plain jew Says:

A kidush ha'shem? I don't know what yeshive you went. but in my torah its not allowed maybe their is a few torah's I don know not only u shouldn't donate parts of a deceased the blood from a niftar you have to scrape off the road or sidewalk if there was an accident ch"v. So donating is against halacha.

Ainoi doime.
The blood is after death.
These are harvested while the person is halachically alive.
Yes, Avrohom Abba's correct!
A Kiddush Hashem of magnificent proportions!
Lemme know where you bought your Smicha, Rabbi!

74

 Aug 03, 2009 at 07:26 PM Anonymous Says:

Rabosay whoever doesn't hold in organ donation should simply tell all their relatives that if they ever get sick and need a kidney or any organ then they don't want someone elses

75

 Aug 03, 2009 at 07:26 PM Realist Says:

Reply to #21  
Mordy Neuman Says:

Again with emotions. Enough! Our Torah guides us on every move in life and in death. Donating organs from a brain-dead person (or evan a completely dead person, according to most) is asur min hatorah. The fact that others were saved is irrelavent. If you think this view is not sensative than sign up for another religion. Our Torah is crystal clear and staying true to it is not always fun or politically correct. Organ donation is against the Torah regardless of YOUR opinion, the Torah rules, not our emotions

Yes.
The Torah rules.
And our current Gedolei Hador (not us bloggers) extrapolate applications from the Torah to know what to do with TODAY'S shailos.
I hate to bust your bubble, but these Gedolim to not search this site for your opinion on halacha before issuing a ruling!

76

 Aug 04, 2009 at 02:01 AM ר' משה Says:

Reply to #69  
Anonymous Says:

Um, youre missing th oint--The idea was that brain stem death is THE SAME THING as detached from the body


"that brain stem death is THE SAME THING as detached from the body"

אם אמנם כן איך הלב פועם בכלל? לדבריך אפשר שהראש יהא נחתך ונפרד מן הגוף ויישארו שאר האברים חיים? מעולם לא שמענו דבר כזה ואין שום הוכחה לא מדברי חז"ל וגם לא מחכמי הרפואה למציאות כזה.
אדרבה מסתברא הדבר שכל עוד שרוב אברים פנימים מופעלים אין המוח נחשב למת, על אף שהבדיקות שעורכים הרופאים קובעים שאין שום פעולות אלקטרונית בהנערבו"ס סיסט"ם, מי יאמר לנו שזה המכריע לקבוע מיתת המוח? ואף אם נאמר שאכן "מת" המוח, מאן יימר שאדם עם מוח "מת", כהגדרתם של הרופאים, אינו עדיף מאדם בלי מוח (או ראש) בכלל, הרי רוב הגוף עדיין חי?
ויש להביא ראי' שהקובע בין חיים למות הוא ה"לב" משיטת חז"ל בנדה פרק המפלת דעובר נחשב לענין טומאת יולדת רק מיום הארבעים והלאה. וידוע אף לפי חכמי הרפואה דזהו הזמן בערך שהלב מתחיל לפעום, משא"כ המוח רק מתחיל להווצר אז והוא מאחרוני האברים להתפתח, וזה דבר ברור לכל הרופאים שהלב כבר בעצם מושלמת הרבה לפני שאר איברי הגוף, ובשבוע ה6 יש כבר רעגולע"ר ריטע"ם - דופק רגיל.
זאת אומרת שהגם שהמוח עדיין בשלבי היצירה המוקדמים עד כדי כך שבקושי אפשר להבחין המוח בשעה שהלב כבר ממלא תפקידו, ואז ביום הארבעים נחשב העובר לולד לענין טומאה (וגם להרבה פוסקים לענין הפלה שאסורה מיום המ' ונחשב לרציחה.)

ולאלו הטוענים שתלוי הדבר בנשימה והיות ש'ברעי"ן דע"ד אינו יכול לנשום בעצמו אין זה ראי' דהרי מה לי עם יש לו כח לנשום בעצמו מה לי מונשם על ידי אחרים? האם תתיר אשת איש לעלמא בגלל שהפסיק הבעל לנשום על ידי כחות עצמו? הרי כמה וכמה ניתוחים יש שמנשימים החולה בהנשמה מלאכותית ואלולי זאת לא היה האדם נושם בעצמו, האם ייחשב למת בשעת מעשה? בודאי שלא. אלא על כרחך שהדבר היחיד שיכול לקבוע מיתת האדם הוא הפסק פעולת הלב באופן שאינה יכולה לפעול עוד (משא"כ אם עוד אפשר לעוררה כגון על ידי סי-פי-אר או שא"ק טריטמענ"ט וכדומה)

לכן מן הנמנע לומר שמותר לקבוע מיתת האדם לפי מדידת פעולת המוח.

77

 Aug 04, 2009 at 06:45 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #76  
ר' משה Says:


"that brain stem death is THE SAME THING as detached from the body"

אם אמנם כן איך הלב פועם בכלל? לדבריך אפשר שהראש יהא נחתך ונפרד מן הגוף ויישארו שאר האברים חיים? מעולם לא שמענו דבר כזה ואין שום הוכחה לא מדברי חז"ל וגם לא מחכמי הרפואה למציאות כזה.
אדרבה מסתברא הדבר שכל עוד שרוב אברים פנימים מופעלים אין המוח נחשב למת, על אף שהבדיקות שעורכים הרופאים קובעים שאין שום פעולות אלקטרונית בהנערבו"ס סיסט"ם, מי יאמר לנו שזה המכריע לקבוע מיתת המוח? ואף אם נאמר שאכן "מת" המוח, מאן יימר שאדם עם מוח "מת", כהגדרתם של הרופאים, אינו עדיף מאדם בלי מוח (או ראש) בכלל, הרי רוב הגוף עדיין חי?
ויש להביא ראי' שהקובע בין חיים למות הוא ה"לב" משיטת חז"ל בנדה פרק המפלת דעובר נחשב לענין טומאת יולדת רק מיום הארבעים והלאה. וידוע אף לפי חכמי הרפואה דזהו הזמן בערך שהלב מתחיל לפעום, משא"כ המוח רק מתחיל להווצר אז והוא מאחרוני האברים להתפתח, וזה דבר ברור לכל הרופאים שהלב כבר בעצם מושלמת הרבה לפני שאר איברי הגוף, ובשבוע ה6 יש כבר רעגולע"ר ריטע"ם - דופק רגיל.
זאת אומרת שהגם שהמוח עדיין בשלבי היצירה המוקדמים עד כדי כך שבקושי אפשר להבחין המוח בשעה שהלב כבר ממלא תפקידו, ואז ביום הארבעים נחשב העובר לולד לענין טומאה (וגם להרבה פוסקים לענין הפלה שאסורה מיום המ' ונחשב לרציחה.)

ולאלו הטוענים שתלוי הדבר בנשימה והיות ש'ברעי"ן דע"ד אינו יכול לנשום בעצמו אין זה ראי' דהרי מה לי עם יש לו כח לנשום בעצמו מה לי מונשם על ידי אחרים? האם תתיר אשת איש לעלמא בגלל שהפסיק הבעל לנשום על ידי כחות עצמו? הרי כמה וכמה ניתוחים יש שמנשימים החולה בהנשמה מלאכותית ואלולי זאת לא היה האדם נושם בעצמו, האם ייחשב למת בשעת מעשה? בודאי שלא. אלא על כרחך שהדבר היחיד שיכול לקבוע מיתת האדם הוא הפסק פעולת הלב באופן שאינה יכולה לפעול עוד (משא"כ אם עוד אפשר לעוררה כגון על ידי סי-פי-אר או שא"ק טריטמענ"ט וכדומה)

לכן מן הנמנע לומר שמותר לקבוע מיתת האדם לפי מדידת פעולת המוח.

For someone who seems somewhat intelligent, why don't you actually read up on the teshuvos and read all the sources--both halachically and medically so you actually have a clue what you're talking about.

78

 Aug 04, 2009 at 12:00 PM Anonymous Says:

I'm sorry to bust the bubble, but there seems to be 2 erroneous assumptions here:

a) that Reb Moshe is considered by all chareidy groups as the overriding authority in his/our generation.

b) that testimony by Reb Dovid, his son, as to what R' Moshe actually held is sufficient and equal to a ruling in responsa.

79

 Aug 05, 2009 at 11:45 AM Anonymous Says:

Reply to #11  
Avrohom Abba Says:

Which Rabbonim? Where is this psak written? Interesting! You're allowed to be michallel Shabbos and Yom Tov to save ONE life, but this יהודי אמיתי has some secret Rabbonim geonim who don't allow donating organs which saved MANY lives!?
"הרבנים הגאונים שליט"א

well i am not taking sides here but one thing is sure that it is not like chilul shabbos or anything like that since if he is still alive its murder for saving others and no where do we find we may even hurt one to save another let alone kill shabbos is something ahsehm says to keep but only if it is vchai bahem meaning u shall live by these laws but if it will make one day of course we may be mechalel on the other hand hurt another human ? i do not mean to take a side here maybe it is mutar maybe not but its not like being mechalel shabbos ! may we be able to save many more lives amen

80

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